• @DMCMNFIBFFF@lemmy.world
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    05 months ago

    US, Canada, Australia, and most of Europe voted against censorship.

    It seems Iran was absent, but Israel voted for it.

    From 1939-1941 the UK fought Nazis while the USSR collaborated with them.

    South Korea abstained, but North Korea voted for it, as did Myanmar.

  • @RockLobstore@lemmy.ml
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    05 months ago

    So…. Anyone want to sponsor me for a work visa outside the USA? This ship is sinking and I’m surrounded by racist assholes apparently, and I want out!! Seriously….

    • @Nindelofocho@lemmy.world
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      05 months ago

      Getting a TEFL/TESOL certification is probably easiest way to go about it. Most countries require a bachelor’s degree to be there on a work visa outside of some circumstances. It still wont be “easy” but itll be easier than trying to sell a skillset thats redundant in a EFL country. Beware of scams and look for accreditation

  • Tenderizer78
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    5 months ago

    I’m guessing, based purely on the countries highlighted, that this is a Russian sponsored resolution.

    There are plenty of more genuine resolutions you could’ve picked, but they wouldn’t have fit your narrative as well. Please don’t defend Russia’s lies just to embellish your point.

    • DessalinesOP
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      05 months ago

      I’m guessing, based purely on the countries highlighted, that this is a Russian sponsored resolution.

      Pretty funny how you saw that all of Latin America, Africa, and Asia voted against genocide, and your first reaction is to call them russian bots.

    • @Manticore@lemmy.nz
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      5 months ago

      I think its more likely that the abstaining countries rely on America for trade or military in some way and don’t want to aggravate them politically but clearly aren’t willing to vote alongside them.

      • Tenderizer78
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        05 months ago

        Or, as the other (better informed) guy said. This resolution equates tearing down soviet monuments to be Nazism.

        That by extension means it equates Ukraine (the country partially occupied and fraudulently annexed by Russia) with Nazism. Countries which respect Ukraine’s sovereignty (and have enough skepticism of Russia to read more than the title) wouldn’t want to vote against (because of the title) but also wouldn’t want to vote in favor.

        • @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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          05 months ago

          Tearing down monuments to WW2 veterans who fought against the Nazis certainly suggests a certain affinity with the Nazis.

          • @Asetru@feddit.org
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            05 months ago

            It doesn’t. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Monuments that glorify Soviets might be torn down for a plethora of reasons that don’t have anything to do with nazism and have a lot to do with Soviet atrocities.

            • @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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              05 months ago

              I’m comfortable to say people tearing down memorials to the soldiers who faught against the Nazis to replace them with memorials to the people who fought for the Nazis makes you a Nazi.

              Feddit continuing not to beat the charges.

    • @bob_lemon@feddit.org
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      05 months ago

      You would be correct: https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/1654458?ln=en&v=pdf

      At the 44th meeting, on 6 November, the representative of the Russian
      Federation, on behalf of Algeria, Armenia, Bangladesh, Belarus, Bolivia
      (Plurinational State of), Burundi, China, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea,
      Eritrea, Kazakhstan, the Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Mali, Myanmar,
      Nicaragua, the Niger, Nigeria, Pakistan, the Russian Federation, the Sudan, the Syrian
      Arab Republic, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of), Viet Nam
      and Zimbabwe, introduced a draft resolution […]

      At the [48th] meeting, the representative of the Russian Federation made a statement.

      Also at the same meeting, statements were made by the representatives of Kyrgyzstan (on behalf of the Collective Security Treaty Organization, composed of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, the Russian Federation, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan), Belarus, the Russian Federation and South Africa.

    • OBJECTION!
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      05 months ago

      We can’t condemn the Nazis because if we condemn the Nazis people will think we’re Nazis. When people see that we won’t condemn the Nazis, that’s how they’ll know we aren’t Nazis.

      • Tenderizer78
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        05 months ago

        I said the resolution is bad, not the principle. You’re again misrepresenting something to further your own narrative.

        • Enkrod
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          5 months ago

          You are correct, see my other comment.

          If you read the resolution and the answers of national governments why they abstained, the answer is found in points 4 and 14 of the resolution, where everyone who fought against the anti-Hitler coalition is condemned and equivocated with nazi-sympathisers. This does include people who opportunistically fought againt the Red Army in the baltic states and Ukraine for national liberation from the USSR, but not necessarily on the german side.

          This resolution is a veiled attemp to paint even the people who fought against Russia for freedom from the USSR but not for Germany as part of the Nazi movements in Soviet states that did fight for Germany.

          • @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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            05 months ago

            “The resolution is bad because it condemns people who fought alongside the Nazis to genocide the USSR.”

            Not beating the Nazi allegations.

            • Enkrod
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              5 months ago

              “People who fought for freedom from the USSR were genociding it.”

              • @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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                5 months ago

                This is just the European equivelant of defending the confederates, except the confederates weren’t allied with the literal Nazis.

        • @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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          05 months ago

          So the content is the resolution is good, but its nonetheless contacted some kind of metaphysical badness unrelated to it’s content due to it being proposed by a bad guy and not a good guy.

          Maybe we can get it proposed by Israel instead, then it would be a good guy presenting it because they only invade non-white countries

          • Tenderizer78
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            05 months ago

            Russia wrote it for a reason. Think for a few seconds on why that might be.

            And please stop lumping me in with the imperialist crowd. I’m anti-imperialism, but unlike some of y’all I (rhetorically) oppose all imperialism not just western imperialism.

            • @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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              05 months ago

              So the content is the resolution is good, but its nonetheless contacted some kind of metaphysical badness unrelated to it’s content due to it being proposed by a bad guy and not a good guy.

              I’m anti-imperialism, but unlike some of y’all I (rhetorically) oppose all imperialism not just western imperialism.

              “Unlike you, I believe that all lives matter, not just black ones”

              • Tenderizer78
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                05 months ago

                I never said the content of the resolution is good. I haven’t read it. I’m just assuming it isn’t since Russia sponsored it. And even if it is actually good, the hypocrisy of the Russians sponsoring a condemnation of Nazism is notable.

                Just because a country is anti-American doesn’t mean it’s anti-evil. I shouldn’t need to explain this. I don’t know why I even tried. This isn’t worth it. You’re not acting in good faith. Drawing a false equivalency between “all lives matter” and “all colonialism is bad”. Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine is bad. Israel’s genocide of Palestinians is bad. America is bad. All three things can be true at once, the world isn’t black and white. Seriously what level of Reddit-brain must you have to try to say stuff like this.

                I should really just mute this whole conversation. I’m gonna look for the button.

                • 小莱卡
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                  05 months ago

                  And even if it is actually good, the hypocrisy of the Russians sponsoring a condemnation of Nazism is notable.

                  Elaborate?

                • @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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                  5 months ago

                  I’m just assuming it isn’t since Russia sponsored it.

                  Ok, I’m just going to not read your comments and assume they’re bad because your a westerner.

                  the hypocrisy of the Russians sponsoring a condemnation of Nazism is notable.

                  What a disgusting thing to say.

                  You’re not acting in good faith.

                  Can I ask a serious question? Who is it that told you idiots that any disagreement is “bad faith”? Because you all deploy this exact phrase, word for word, any time anyone disagrees with you. It’s your favourite thought terminating cliche.

                  Drawing a false equivalency between “all lives matter” and “all colonialism is bad”.

                  It’s a completely apt equivalence, you just don’t want it to be.

                  Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine is bad. Israel’s genocide of Palestinians is bad. America is bad. All three things can be true at once, the world isn’t black and white. Seriously what level of Reddit-brain must you have to try to say stuff like this.

                  What the fuck is this complete non-sequitor? Not to mention it runs counter to your position up to know (“if Russia says Nazis bad, then Nazis good”)

                  the world isn’t black and white.

                  Your whole argument is that Russia is bad, so anything they do is bad! That’s the most black and white argument imaginable!

                  I should really just mute this whole conversation. I’m gonna look for the button.

                  Google Satre’s quote about anti-Semites

                • @m532@lemmygrad.ml
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                  05 months ago

                  Russia is at war with nazis currently. Of course they have the most to gain from condemning nazism.

            • @MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml
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              05 months ago

              Russia wrote it for a reason. Think for a few seconds on why that might be.

              Because NATO put a bunch of Nazis in its command structure and the U.S. has backed various fascists countless times in the last 80 years, so it would put the western alliance in an embarrassing spot.

              That’s like half of politics: trying to embarass your opponents into backing off various positions.

      • 小莱卡
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        5 months ago

        I love it, it leads to epic blunders like having an homage to a nazi in Canada because he fought the russians.

      • @Merva@sh.itjust.works
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        05 months ago

        It is funny because tankie thought is literal positive reaction to anything Russia and China does. Your comment shows it is also pure projection.

        • Cowbee [he/they]
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          05 months ago

          Not at all, Marxists are quite critical of Russia, for example, for being deeply socially reactionary, or China for engaging with trade with Israel, rather than sanctioning it. Marxists don’t accept prevailing western narratives surrounding enemies of the US Empire, which anti-Marxists try to simplify into simple reaction against the US Empire, rather than actually engage with the reasoning for supporting, say, China overall fronted by Marxists.

          • @Merva@sh.itjust.works
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            5 months ago

            Not at all, Marxists are quite critical of Russia

            That remains to be seen. Hasn’t happened yet. But perhaps some day?

            • Cowbee [he/they]
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              05 months ago

              This is deliberate ignorance. Marxists see the modern Russian Federation as a right-wing, Nationalist Capitalist country that is socially reactionary. Marxists tend to support Russia’s movements against the US Empire, which is seen as a much greater evil, and appreciate ties to countries like China that may have a positive influence on Russia reverting to Socialism, but there is much to be critical of in Russia. When you have to make up your opponent’s position, you’re deliberately lying to others, and frequently yourself as well.

              • @DMCMNFIBFFF@lemmy.world
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                05 months ago

                How do Marxists see the USSR, China under Mao, Hoxhua, North Korea, Pol Pot, and Sendero Luminoso?

                Let me guess:

                USSR and Mao generally good, particularly given circumstances; Hoxhua who?; North Korea better than South Korea (and PRC even today is better than ROC); Pol Pot wasn’t a true Scotsman; and you like at least a few RATM songs.

                • Cowbee [he/they]
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                  05 months ago

                  You’re pretty close, generally. Pol Pot wasn’t a Marxist at all, though, the Khmer Rouge rejected Marxism, and his form of “communism” was deeply anti-materialist and was idealist in nature. He was also stopped by the Vietnamese. Hoxha is Hoxha. The Korea bit and USSR/PRC bits are of course oversimplified, but broadly accepted as correct.

      • Tenderizer78
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        05 months ago

        The resolution was explicitly designed to justify Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, an act condemned by 141 countries (ES-11/1) including many that voted for the above resolution. Voting for a resolution condemning Nazi’s, written by a Nazi regime and designed to frame their opponents as Nazi’s themself … I’ll leave it up to you on how you would view that.

        If you want to frame the West as evil, you can without being misleading, ES-10/21 is a resolution drafted by Jordan calling for the condemnation of Israel’s genocide in Gaza. That was abstained on by most Western countries and voted against by the USA and Hungary. Many countries cited wanting an “explicit condemnation of Hamas” as their reason, and that is what I’d call a weak ass excuse.

  • @hitwright@lemmy.world
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    05 months ago
    1. Expresses deep concern about increased frequency of attempts and activities intended to desecrate or demolish monuments erected in remembrance of those who fought against Nazism during the Second World War, as well as to unlawfully exhume or remove the remains of such persons, and in this regard urges States to fully comply with their relevant obligations, inter alia, under article 34 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions of 194

    Clearly designed to enforce Russian rethoric and force the glorification of USSR. Not surprised it’s voted against by Ukraine.

  • @ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
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    05 months ago

    Wasn’t that UN resolution’s one of the definitions of Nazism, that “the belief that the Ukrainian language and people are not a Leninist fabrication, to break the unity of the Russian empire”?

      • @MrMakabar@slrpnk.net
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        05 months ago

        It is introduced by Russia and the main problem seems to be that any sort of collaborator with any sort of Nazi organization is considered to be jus the same. The problem with that is, that a number of anti Soviet groups did that as well, which now are seen as heros for their fight for independence of some formerly Soviet countries. That is particularily true for Ukraine, as Stalin did commit mass murder only a few years before the Nazis did invade Ukraine. Ukraine was also occupied by German forces in WW1 and although it was an occupation Stalin was seen as worse. So a lot of them were initially rather happy about it. That quickly changed though.

        https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2022/11/09/why-france-and-51-other-countries-voted-against-the-un-resolution-condemning-nazism_6003471_8.html

        • Cowbee [he/they]
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          5 months ago

          The fact that Nazi collaborators are seen as heroes is a problem. The Communists were in no way comparable in evil to the Nazis, the Communists were a massive force for progress as compared to their peers, while the Nazis invented industrialized mass murder. Further, the majority of Ukrainians actually believe the breakup of the USSR was a bad thing.

          The reason is simple, transitioning from Socialism to Capitalism resulted in an estimated 7 million excess deaths globally, a huge spike in poverty and wealth inequality, destruction of safety nets, and a rise in far-right nationalists directly funded and supported by the West. This is why Nazi collaborators like Stepan Bandera are seeing resurging popularity in Ukraine, and this is a bad thing.

          Further, the 1930s famine in Ukraine was by no means an intentional mass murder, such claims originate with the Nazis trying to discredit the Soviet Union. Even the Wikipedia page on Holodomor recognizes that claims of intentional murder are dubious at the most generous:

          While most scholars are in consensus that the main cause of the famine was largely man-made, it remains in dispute whether the Holodomor was intentional, whether it was directed at Ukrainians, and whether it constitutes a genocide, the point of contention being the absence of attested documents explicitly ordering the starvation of any area in the Soviet Union.

          The truth of the matter is that it was a horrible tragedy that got spun by the Nazis as evidence of the evils of the Soviet Union, as it was free propaganda to paint it as such by the Nazis, and useful for the anti-communist west to spread the Nazi narrative as from a Realpolitik perspective any means of discrediting Socialism was a good means. This is further affirmed by the openining of the Soviet Archives and the wealth of information confirmed and denied by them.

            • Cowbee [he/they]
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              5 months ago

              The famine in the 1930s was the last major famine outside of wartime in Russia and the surrounding areas until the collapse of the USSR, in a country where under the Tsar famine was regular and common. As a consequence of providing free and high quality healthcare, lowering working hours, improving labor conditions, and achieving food security, life expectancy doubled from the 30s to the 70s. The famine was a tragedy, but the Soviets were also responsible for ending famine and dramatically improving the lives of the working class.

              As for the Great Purge, that wasn’t something targeting Ukrainians specifically, but all manner of criminals. The purges themselves usually just meant expulsion from the party, but often criminal charges were levied against former members of the White Army, Nazi collaborators, rapists, corrupt officials, and other serious crimes. 700,000 were condemned to death, with many of those condemned being aquitted and not actually executed, though it is true that there was unfortunately excess.

              You’ll want to read this excerpt from the book The Triumph of Evil, specifically page 74:

              The claim that Stalin and other Soviet leaders killed millions (Conquest, 1990) also appears to be wildly exaggerated. More recent evidence from the Soviet archives opened up by the anticommunist Yeltsin government indicate that the total number of death sentences (including of both existing prisoners and those outside captivity) over the 1921-1953 interval (covering the period of Stalin’s partial and complete rule) was between 775,866 and 786,098 (Getty, Rittersporn, and Zemskov, 1993). Given that the archive data originates from anti-Stalin (and even anticommunist) sources, it is extremely unlikely that they underestimate the true number (Thurston, 1996). In addition, the Soviet Union has long admitted to executing at least 12,733 people between 1917 and 1921, mostly during the Foreign Interventionist Civil War of 1918-22, although it is possible that as many as 40,000 more may have been executed unofficially (Andics, 1969).

              These data would seem to imply about 800,000 executions. The figure of 800,000 may greatly overestimate the number of actual executions, as it includes many who were sentenced to death but who were not actually caught or who had their sentences reduced (Getty, Rittersporn, and Zemskov, 1993). In fact, Vinton (1993) has provided evidence indicating that the number of executions was significantly below the number of civilian prisoners sentenced to death in the Soviet Union, with only 7,305 executions in a sample of 11,000 prisoners authorized to be executed in 1940 (or scarcely 600/o ). In addition, most (681,692) of the 780,000 or so death sentences passed under Stalin were issued during the 1937-38 period (Getty, Ritterspom, and Zemskov, 1993), when Soviet paranoia about foreign subversion reached its zenith due to a 1936 alliance between Nazi Germany and fascist Japan that was specifically directed against the Soviet Union (Manning, 1993) and due to a public 1936 resolution by a group of influential anti-Stalin foreigners (the Fourth International which was allied with the popular but exiled Russian dissident Leon Trotsky) advocating the overthrow of the Soviet government by illegal means (Glotzer, 1968).

              Stalin initially set a cap of 186,500 imprisonments and 72,950 death penalties for a 1937 special operation to combat this threat that was to be carried out by local 3-man tribunals called ''troikas" (Getty, Ritterspom, and Zemskov, 1993). As the tribunals passed death sentences before the accused had even been arrested, local authorities requested increases in their own quotas (Knight, 1993), and there was an official request in 1938 for a doubling of the amount of prisoner transport that had been initially requisitioned to carry out the original campaign “quotas” of the tribunals (Getty, Ritterspom, and Zemskov, 1993). However, even if there had been twice as many actual • executions as originally planned, the number would still be less than 150,000. Many of those sentenced by the tribunals may have escaped capture, and many more may have had their death sentence refused or revoked by higher authorities before arrest/execution could take place, especially since Stalin later realized that excesses had been committed in the 1937-38 period, had a number of convictions overturned, and had many of the responsible local leaders punished (Thurston, 1996)."

              This is why relying exclusively on Wikipedia is silly, do some actual reading. A solid rule of thumb with respect to any Wikipedia article on enemies of the US is to look at where the figures and sources come from and analyze them yourself, as you can see Wikipedia made the error of conflating condemnations with executions.

              Your entire point, though, relies on painting the Communists as comparable evils to the Nazis, which is quantitatively and qualitatively divorced from reality. Again, the Nazis industrialized mass murder deliberately, and figures like Bandera sided with them deliberately against the Soviets, who were a force for good. Upholding Nazi sympathizers is a bad thing.

              • @MrMakabar@slrpnk.net
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                05 months ago

                Your entire point, though, relies on painting the Communists as comparable evils to the Nazis, which is quantitatively and qualitatively divorced from reality. Again, the Nazis industrialized mass murder deliberately, and figures like Bandera sided with them deliberately against the Soviets, who were a force for good. Upholding Nazi sympathizers is a bad thing.

                Just to be clear, as in my initial post:

                So a lot of them were initially rather happy about it. That quickly changed though.

                I pretty much said that Stalin was mass murderer and did not run Ukraine very well. I do not think any of what you wrote really disproves that. You do not need to be on Nazi level evil, to be evil.

                We are also talking about modern day Russia introducing the resolution for a reason. Basically it would be Bandera wanted an independent Ukraine, so everybody who wants an independent Ukraine is a Nazi. If the West agrees with that resolution, then that would be used. This way they choose to be absent, as to not be in that vote.

                • Cowbee [he/they]
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                  05 months ago

                  The “lot of Ukrainians” that saw the USSR as worse than the Nazis were the far-right nationalists in Ukraine spearheaded by Bandera. A “lot of USians” were certainly upset at ending slavery, to the point of armed struggle, but that doesn’t make them correct, either. Bandera was a far-right nationalist that is supported by the modern far-right nationalists in Ukraine, which is why there’s a problem with Nazi brigades like Azov increasing in relevance in Ukrainian politics post-Maidan.

                  Further, again, the Soviets were unquestionably the most progressive force throughout the 20th century, from supporting revolutionary movements in Cuba, Algeria, South Africa, Vietnam, Korea, China, and more, to supporting Palestinians against genocide at the hands of Israel, to being responsible for 90% of the total Nazis killed in World War II and saving the world from fascism, to doubling life expectancies, over tripling literacy rates, democratizing the economy, and dramatically lowering wealth inequality.

                  Yes, there absolutely were problems faced internally and externally, and there were mistakes and excesses. These pale in comparison to the deliberate acts of mass genocide perpetrated by Western Europe and the US throughout the 20th century and today, all while the USSR was under constant siege and the Western world reaped the spoils of Imperialism.

                  Bandera and neo-Nazism are tied to Ukrainian politics. Nationalists are in control of politics, and the Banderites make up the majority of Nationalists in Ukraine. This is a sad reality that must be confronted, no matter what your stance on the modern Russo-Ukrainian war is, and it ties directly to Ukraine and the US being the only countries to vote against this resolution.

        • @BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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          05 months ago

          “The problem with the resolution is that it says Nazis are bad, even when they’re killing Russians!”

  • @KazuchijouNo@lemy.lol
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    05 months ago

    UN General Assembly resolution on “combatting the glorificarion of Nazism, neo-Nazism […] Contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and memes made with mematic”

    • @7oo7@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      05 months ago

      Having a metropolis is not exempt from being under oppression.

      Would you show pictures of skyscrapers in the middle east to compare its human rights?

      • @MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml
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        5 months ago

        The accusation wasn’t human rights abuses, the accusation was genocide.

        The propaganda trick here is to throw out a henious story, completely fail to back it up with evidence, then gradually retreat to a far less damning accusation that’s essentially impossible to disprove. The smear sticks with most people and you then see how much of the lie you can get away with depending on the crowd.

      • TankieTanuki [he/him]
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        5 months ago

        Most Marxist-Leninists are skeptical of the Uyghur genocide narrative because the scant evidence we’re given comes from spurious sources like Adrian Zenz and an Australian weapons makers think tank called the ASPI. We’re also well-versed in the American empire’s history of hurling manufactured atrocity propaganda at its geopolitical rivals.

        Ignore the photographs of Xinjiang and Gaza. Just look at the maps to the left. They show that the only countries against China on the Uyghur issue are the exact same colonizing countries which are trying to subjugate the Global South on every other issue. We think this isn’t a coincidence.

      • SexMachineStalin [he/him, comrade/them]
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        05 months ago

        Because the people living in the many apartment towers in the top image aren’t being targeted in a literal Final Solution supported by the exact same powers that cry crocodile tears over made-up claims of “genocide in Xinjiang”.

        Also the Uyghurs living in Xinjiang are Chinese citizens.

        Death to ameriKKKa, Death to piSSrael

  • NutWrench
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    05 months ago

    When your support for a country is so blind and unconditional that you can support genocide.