s are still flagging this post 
I knew Lemmy was a good place, and then the sealab memes came.
Now it’s better.
I know Ellis Henican has a whole ass career that isn’t voice acting, but it kills me we only ever got him as Stormy Waters and nothing else. He’s got such a great voice!
Him saying “Marduk, son of Ia, Slayer of Tiamat” inexplicably runs through my head all the time
Yes, let’s fight prejudice by stereotyping a whole race, gender, and sexual orientation…
oh god this feels like Reddit all over again. they’re not hunting you! i promise
I very frequently find that very few people here grasp the concept of humor in any measurable way.
It’s concerning how much support these types of statements get.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
–Dr. Martin Luther King Junior
“Whites, it must frankly be said, are not putting in a similar mass effort to re-educate themselves out of their racial ignorance. It is an aspect of their sense of superiority that the white people of America believe they have so little to learn.”
“The problems of racial injustice and economic injustice cannot be solved without a radical redistribution of political and economic power.”
“First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”.”
–Dr. Martin Luther King Junior
MLK Jr., famous for talking about how much he loves white moderates right
MLK Jr, the guy that has that one quote about white moderates that gets paraded around constantly while 90% of his other words are completely ignored.
Good to see the true feelings of this community reflected in such quick fashion. ‘That one quote’ is a pretty lengthy diatribe, and it’s far from his only time. But the sick comeback makes white moderates feel better about themselves
He never stereotyped whites as a distinct singular identity that I can recall, it was always about their relation to maintaining inequality. One of his most impactful actions was convincing white and black unions to strike together, and that the fight for jobs and equality was one poor whites and blacks needed to share. In “The Other America” he constantly references poor white populations who share in the struggle.
MLK Jr never divided people by race like this, he thought that was one of the Three Evils plaguing American society.
“Whites, it must frankly be said, are not putting in a similar mass effort to reeducate themselves out of their racial ignorance. It is an aspect of their sense of superiority that the white people of America believe they have so little to learn."
- Dr. Martin Luther King Junior
No no we don’t have to stereotype anyone.
Let’s just go straight to hunting them for sport
The men who are worried about being hunted for sport have been told too many times that that’s what should happen to them
Or they just read forums like this.
I mean, if it did happen, would that be the worst thing?
Yes. It would be absolutely disgusting.
“Yeah but they’re assholes, so it’s okay to actually murder them”
The point should be to bring everyone up, not pull others down, though
Making sure the rain forest isn’t destroyed doesn’t mean letting the pinebarrens be converted into a strip mall.
Are you in this meme right now?
It’s just a recognition that life isn’t a zero sum game. Everyone benefits when the worst off in society attain improved circumstances.
But isn’t that the point of the meme? Am I going crazy?
It’s sort of like a Rorschach test. What you see reveals things about you and your thoughts.
This is a flawed method of thinking though, there are plenty of factors that go into what you think. If you’re aware of and trying to avoid a negative stereotype, you’re just as likely to fall into the “he doth protest too much” as someone who demonstrates that stereotype.
That’s impossible since the point was a superficial elevation of their own interests.
Unless you think the point of feminism (for example) is to make men second class citizens. That’s just not a thing. It’s a rhetoric created by assholes to get ignorant people on board with their continued grossness.
There’s also a psychological phenomenon that occurs in ‘elite classes’ where they think that someone getting more means they get less. They literally cannot fathom someone getting welfare without it affecting them negatively. It’s one of the reasons why poor people still support Republicans.
a lot of women who call themselves feminist believe theyre superior to men instead of equal. most of those are very loud about it, so feminism turns into a term that describes that, even if the “real” meaning isn’t that.
“A lot?” No.
L O fucking L
Unless you think the point of feminism (for example) is to make men second class citizens. That’s just not a thing. It’s a rhetoric created by assholes to get ignorant people on board with their continued grossness.
I think there may be some radicals who genuinely wish for that, but those don’t represent the entire movement and usually only pay lip service to the cause where it aligns with their personal beliefs. They should be ignored.
I think there may be some radicals who genuinely wish for that
Those aren’t radicals; those are reactionary trolls who falsely claim allegiance to the movement in order to discredit it.
I’m not even sure the radicals want that. Anger is an appropriate response to oppression. Vengeance is an extreme form of that but I doubt anyone that isn’t truly damaged would be okay with it.
For a while it seemed like that minority owned the term “feminism”
Unless you think the point of feminism (for example) is to make men second class citizens.
More people want this, than you think. These “radicals” are not a minority, and they are the ones who have ruined what feminism once stood for – equality. And the most intriguing part is this has only happened within the last decade, thanks to social media amplifying toxic voices (negativity spreads fastest). Feminism wants to recruit men, but openly says men and their rights (equality) are not their responsibility.
There is a big question mark on equality claims, which frustrates me, because neither needs to suffer.
That IS the point, and rarely do equality or equity initiatives “pull down” anyone.
But the Haves feel like they’ve earned their position, and that means that if you help a Have Not in any way, you are taking away from their achievement (which in this case is “not being born poor/black/female”)
That’s well and good, but bringing everyone up needs to be done in consideration of lasting multigenerational harm from what has come previously, and areas where we as a people and nation continue to marginalize, underserve, and sometimes actively harm some segments of our population.
Folks who think those things should be ignored are not actually interested in bringing everyone up.
There aren’t a limited amount of rights that can only be handed out to be shared amongst people.
There are just rights and everyone should be entitled to them.
The issue is that people generally view their situation not by how much they have, but how much more they have than others. It’s like a race to these people - who’s winning isn’t based on how close to the goal they are, it’s based on how far ahead of the competitors they are. People who have everything they need often see others getting to that same point as competitors catching up, and, seeing that they are not advancing themselves, they feel that they need to prevent that in order to maintain their lead. It’s meant to be everyone working together, but few see it that way, especially among the current “winners.”
The issue is that people generally view their situation not by how much they have, but how much more they have than others.
Some people are that way, but not “people generally.”
I considered putting a “some” in there, but honestly, I feel like it’s sadly the default state, at least in the US. Even fellow politically-left people I meet rarely demand resources for underprivileged people that actually elevate them to their own station. It usually feels like “They deserve more! But still less than me.”
“White people be like” memes, so progressive
go back to Reddit
No shit, the only thing leftists want to pull down are systems of exploitation.
At the same time, privileged people will still sometimes feel a loss of something when you’re portioning out a finite resource. So if a particular group is 25% of the population and they were getting 75% of the pie before and now they’re getting 25% of the pie, that’s a loss. It’s a justified loss, but it’s still a loss.
That said, there are other things like rights that are not finite in any meaningful sense of the word. When someone is feeling a loss because an oppressed group gained rights, it’s usually because they’re an oppressive asshole.
Meanwhile, the Right want to pull down your trousers to check your “gender”.
There can be only none, Debbie!
Marduk desires not the barren wasteland of your desiccated viscera.
Martian Law!
There is equity, and there is equality, and those are different things. I do think that forceful push to maintain percentages in various aspects of life to correspond to percentages of population often is actually unjust. For example, to insist that it should be strictly 50/50 percentage (or whatever it is) between men and women in all professions e.g. police, school teachers, etc. and actually stop hiring a particular gender until this 50/50 distribution is established is not good.
A great point! I feel like the overarching end goal is a meritocracy - people are rewarded for their talents and hard work. I’d wager most people agree with this goal.
The problem becomes disentangling history and circumstance from our ability to measure talent and hard work. The only way we know to break some social norms that hinder a true meritocracy is to unfairly manipulate the playing field in the short term, which in itself does not follow a meritocracy.
I think there are a few main obstacles:
- Perceived talent and hard work that was actually the result of circumstance - those that think the system is currently working and therefore their position is justified.
- Lack of acceptance that the goal is long term / generational. Those that are unwilling to accept a temporary ‘manipulated meritocracy’ in the short term that would allow a better one in the future.
Perfect intersectionality is a goal, an ideal that we can be measured against, but there must be a transition to it because we are not there in many ways. Places holding themselves to a strict or impossible standard are probably hurting themselves in the short term, but I still think that it is a good goal to work toward.
The problem with this graphics is that this is absolutely not what equity proponents are doing. What is shown here is individual approach. What equity supporters want to do is to group you according by things like skin color or gender, and provide support according that grouping.
For example, equality in income distribution is when help is given based on income of the individual. Equity is when help is given based on skin color to make average income of all skin colors the same.
There’s also a conflict of interest that informs these notions, namely that “equality,” especially in the economic sense, the one that was invoked by MLK Jr and popular in the Civil Rights era, represents a threat to economic arrangements. Those same arrangements, like employers who purchase services from the diversity industry, inform the type of content that will be most marketable for diversity consultants. A company isn’t going to invoke notions of these things that would impact their bottom line. That’s why disparity frameworks are the most readily adopted by capital, because the arrangement of individuals in the system doesn’t alter or threaten the position of capital. The inverse example of this notion of equity would be, “everyone should struggle for a decent job and quality of life equally.” You can even bring this framework to the Antebellum south where, “if we had more black slave owners…”
So I always raise this “yes, and” approach to this subject matter, because it’s in the history of this racial order where the more radical and satisfying answers to it are.
That is an amazing graphic. Thanks for sharing it.
The little guy should be hurt in the 3rd panel as well for the sake of accuracy.
I find that equity tends to create the illusion of opportunity rather than proving actual support that allows the disadvantaged to properly take advantage of the opportunities, thus backfiring and hurting all parties.Justice is clearly the better option.
Justice is clearly the better option.
Sure it is, but folks fight it tooth and nail, so you end up settling for equity.
Frankly, I find the folks who think equity looks like your image and description are usually the folks we’re also having to fight against for justice. I’m a little surprised to see you supporting the fence analogy while also tearing down the boxes one. (Maybe we have different ideas about what the fence is?)
Personally I disagree that your third panel is accurate, and IME the occurrence of that outcome (and your “college spots” example) is a theoretical worst case, and detractors of equity-focused solutions claim it to be much more common it than it ever is.
It’s like all those 70’s cartoons where quicksand was a likely threat. Sure, quicksand exists. Are you likely to encounter it? No. Any entity that is supposedly taking unqualified candidates for any position based on equity programs would bring other harm to itself by doing so. I think there’s a reasonable debate to be had about things that fall under the broad umbrella of affirmative action, but I don’t think a reasonable debate includes the assertion that it routinely creates outcomes that result in hiring unqualified candidates.
It’s far easier to find cases of those programs doing exactly what they should than to find them doing harm.
Various edits…
The problem with equity is that we live under a government in which doesn’t give a rats ass about providing boxes in the first place and so rather chooses the appeasement route that takes the least amount of effort.
They don’t actually want to do anything, just appear like are.So that makes it a continuing goal and imperfect solution that we should continue to improve while working on the much bigger and longer problem of taking down the fence.
Yes, it’s implementation is imperfect.
If equity focused on providing necessary supports in the first place rather than taking shortcuts, the fence would’ve already been down by now.Please, note that I’m neither “right” or “left”. I hold beliefs that fall on either end as well a neither.
I’m mearly a rights advocate that looks for the truth & most effective solution and in doing so, I believe we must look at the shortcomings of the supposed solution to patch out the jank so it can actually be a solution rather than the illusion of one.
People often look at the solution their side proposes through rose colored glasses and solutions proposed by the opposition through a circus mirror. As is the nature of the “us vs. them” mindset the vast majority of people take when anything political is discussed.
Harrison Bergeron was required reading when I was in school, and should be for everyone, especially these days.
That’s a good read, thanks.
They actually made a half decent movie based on the short story too if you’re interested.
Indeed I am.
It’s pretty easy to find. Has the exact same name. There are several versions right on Youtube.
I’ll tell you what’s at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.
Seeeaaalaaab underneath the water
God damn that theme song is a banger
Related JAQing off opinion piece in The Guardian posted today: “Where are all the films about ‘whiteness’?” .
For those unfamiliar with the acronym, JAQ = “Just asking questions,” a bad faith tactic pushing an absurd narrative (e.g. “movies for white people are disappearing”) by pretending to ask innocent questions.
Direct quote, emphasis mine:
That’s why the final step towards true racial equality on screen is for whiteness to be cinematically named, described and dethroned from its “just human” position of cultural power. It’s time for white people to develop a cinema culture all of their own.
It’s riddled with white power talking points like this. This shit is really fucked up. It is irresponsible for a well-known major news source to publish shit like this, even with the “opinion” label attached. It’s basically right wing extremist (aka Nazi) recruitment propaganda.
The real problem with that Guardian piece is the insistence on perpetuating a superficial identity marker well past its expiration date. Why do we keep breathing life into the dead horse that is racism? Let it die along with the aging population of people who grew up when it was still cool to think that race exists.
That’s why the final step towards true racial equality on screen is for whiteness to be cinematically named, described and dethroned from its “just human” position of cultural power.
No, the way to dethrone whiteness as being “just human” is for all movies to have reasonable representation of non-white people.
I didn’t read the whole thing but I made it to your quote and I think their point is intended to be anti-racist. They are saying films have a sort of universal human experience or perspective or whatever you want to call it that’s been “white” by default but shouldn’t be.
This is also how I read it. I actually really appreciate attacking the idea of “white as default”. It’s kind of like how some gamers think representing anything besides the “default” demographic is “political”.
I think this is the more revealing excerpt:
This is the defining irony of white film-making. The more oblivious your film is to matters of race, the whiter it plays. Because whiteness is often exactly that: the freedom not to see race, even when it’s right there in front of you.
Basically, being aware of whiteness makes for less racist movies. There’s nothing wrong with white movies, but it’s wrong when white movies pretend they’re not white, but universal and default. The article concludes:
Instead, our twofold expectation should be this: 1) The industry affords more film-makers of colour the same creative freedoms and commercial opportunities that are now afforded white film-makers, and 2) That the film culture – including the film-makers themselves – develop the confidence, insight and language to discuss and dethrone white cinema.
This does not sound like racist dog-whistling or white supremacy to me.
Yep, and the top comment showed the exact kind of thinking that led to the creation of OPs meme.
Just talking about whiteness in anything other than accusatory or self-deprecating terms is always racism by default, even if the points made are absolutely valid and not racist at all.
This in turn leads to a situation where a large chunk of the “mildly conservative” folks can only assume, that if those are the advocates of the movement, then just mentioning their own identity will get them in trouble. Demagogues of course gladly take it from there.
Once again, self-righteous zealots sabotage the very thing they claim to be fighting for, by completely not understanding what that actually means.
The “Carlson Gambit”.
I read that as white people being perceived as the default human, which they (the writer) assert needs to change by defining white people with a distinct non-default culture. Your emphasis only serves to show me your laser-focus on one statement, disregarding the context, which I perhaps incorrectly assume you looked specifically for after the title of the article upset you.
Yes! Let’s beat hate, by hating a different group…
Pointing out their whinging is hardly hate. Way to be a perfect example of the post, whether you’re a white dude or not.
“their” whining. Right, I’m the asshole for not liking language lumping a whole group of people into a bucket.
If you are ok with demonizing language like that, that’s on you. I want nothing to do with it.
You know, I really, really think you’re reading something into this that isn’t there. What, exactly, strikes you as hate here? What in this meme is “demonizing language”? It’s a joke pointing out that privileged people tend to panic and lash out when the people who have historically had fewer privileges than them start receiving help to level the playing field, as if life is some kind of zero-sum game and others being treated better suddenly means they’ll get treated worse. This is a well-recognized truth that applies broadly across privileged populations and has been remarked upon by many people through the years of building civil liberties for minorities of all stripes, and this meme is just poking a bit of fun at it. No one thinks that literally every single cishet white dude is panicking that they’ll be up against the wall if minorities ask to be treated better. I’m really confused at your apparently visceral reaction against this so-called “hate”.
If you are having trouble understanding simply replace cis white male, with any other group like gay black woman. Is it still funny and ok?
I don’t like to discriminate against races and sexes no matter where it’s coming from. And saying “it’s just a prank, bro” doesn’t make it ok.
There are plenty of ways to make a joke like this by actually targeting bigots.
My simple rule is: if it’s something you are born with it’s not ok to lump people together (race, sex, sexual orientation). If it’s something you chose, like political affiliation, etc then it’s all fair game.
They’re not being made fun of for being white cishet men. They’re being made fun of for being privileged and whinging about other people now receiving the rights to which they felt they alone were entitled. Being privileged is not something you are born with, it is something granted to you by an unjust society. Crying about others being granted rights as if it will affect them negatively is a choice they are making. This is not about them being cishet white dudes. It is about them choosing to resist progress because it might mean they don’t get treated like the super special kiddies our society has always treated them as.
That you are equating “haha these privileged people are overreacting to minorities no longer having boots on their necks” with “boo hoo, you’re saying all white cishet dudes are bad” tells me all I need to know. I won’t be able to change your mind, so have fun feeling persecuted 💜
♪If you’re looking for me, You better check under the sea, 'cause that is where you’ll find me, Underneath the sea, lab, Underneath the water, Sealab, at the bottom of the sea.♪
In general white cishet westerners don’t know any social dynamic beyond the “in” group oppressing the “out” group (colonialism, settler-colonialism, slavery, capitalism, imperialism), so without targeted education, their imagination of different social structures can only be a projection of this assumed default state.
“Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you’re a man, you take it.” - Malcolm X
The downvotes. Oh no.
