cross-posted from: https://lemmit.online/post/1011094
This is an automated archive made by the Lemmit Bot.
The original was posted on /r/aboringdystopia by /u/bisexualbestfriend on 2023-10-04 15:06:06.
These posters make me want to organize.
It tells me that they think paying for graphics, ads etc are just a fraction of what I can gain.
Same. They also want to make me commit acts of civil disobedience such as tearing all of them down.
I suspect that’s why it’s hanging right above the fingerprint/face scanner punchcard kiosk.
Email the IWW, they’ll give you manuals.
Part of a union already UC system. They helped us get additional sick hours and pay during COVID. Plus additional time off.
Expanding the connections of the labor movement is never a bad thing. You never know when you’ll need help from a steel workers union, teamsters, etc.
Never forget: If a company doesn’t want you to have it, it’s probably a good for you.
It really is that simple.
Most companies don’t want you to drink cyanide, but it isn’t good for you. Most companies don’t want you getting hurt on the job. Most companies don’t want you drinking or doing drugs while using heavy equipment. All these things arent good for you.
I’m not saying to unionize or not, but the logic is fallacious.
My union got me more money in a single year than I will pay in dues for my entire career in at least 3 separate years in the 6 years I’ve been working for my employer.
I get leave each year that is slightly more than 20 percent of my work hours.
Unions are amazing for workers.
It’s amazing how anti union the US is. Unionise everything unless you want to be bent over and fucked by the long dick of capitalism.
My family is from West Virginia. They literally had battles for unions. Unions saved the state for a little while. Everyone I know there is also very anti-union. I don’t know how. This is why history is important, but they won’t teach you these parts of history in school.
That’s not true at all, you’re clearly not in the US if you think that. It’s also not true that open shops all get fucked. Don’t be ignorant. I got a handful of buddies that work for open shops that get paid more than I do, and have better benefits. I get some perks they don’t clearly, but even with that figured out by the math, some of them do better. All comes down to the company behind it and whether they’re smart enough to give a shit and realize their working are important, or whether they’re shitbags and need a leash on them.
Don’t trust unions - they can’t guarantee you benefits. Trust us, we guarantee the most exploitative conditions as long as you don’t organise!
That sarcasm is incredably subtle. Those on reddit tricked/paid to promote that sentiment would include your first sentence almost verbatim.
Don’t trust unions - they can’t guarantee you benefits.
Divided you beg. United you bargain.
Absolutely true, godspeed my friend
Well, they can’t. Let’s be real. That’s a bad angle to argue from. LONG list of all the positives and truths, but don’t use that one unless you very easily want to get shut down and look foolish. I left my last 2 jobs because of the corporate end going stupid and pensions being iffy, both of them have since filed for bankruptcy.
How is this even legal? As a European I can’t understand how anyone falls for this blatant anti-union propaganda. They are obviously beneficial to workers (that’s literally why they exist) and I’ve never had to run anything by my union unless I believe I’m being unfairly treated by my employer.
Yes, from a European point of view this is something straight out of a bad comedy sketch. If unions would be bad for workers, why the hell would anyone want to advertise against them?
Over the last 11 years since I moved into my current role, my salary has risen by approximately £35k. In addition to this my conditions have improved and I work fewer hours. My yearly negotiated increase has always outstripped inflation and I have only lost one day’s pay due to strike action to achieve these rises.
The company I work for continues to post profits in the billions of £s, despite paying their workers fairly.
I’d say my monthly union dues of <£20 have served me pretty well.
Anyone advocating against a union either stands to lose out by unionisation (ie those at the top that would rather keep their bonuses/salaries as high as possible) or have completely bought in to the capitalist nonsense that is often thrown around about unions.
or have completely bought in to the capitalist nonsense that is often thrown around about unions.
Don’t start that anti-capitalist bullshit. You can’t be happy about making more money, then bash capitalism. Can’t have your cake and eat it too pal!
Because in many cases they can be. Really depends on your industry, and the Union you’re in. Some are the only way the job is tolerable, sometimes they hold workers back, many times unintentionally but still happens. I’m in trucking, for us, we’re WAY better off with Unions behind us because trucking has VERY outdated regulations and many employers exploit that likes it’s tax code loopholes.
I’m in a right to work state, so people don’t have to join the Union if they don’t want to, you’d be amazed at how many don’t! Many of the ones who don’t are the people in the boomer years who have years of gripes against the Unions, people that spends decades as union workers. I’ve heard a lot of shit, it’s not all bullshit. There’s +/-. Only ignorant people claim otherwise.
Free speech I suppose.
Illegal would be then telling them they cannot unionize, or they’ll face repercussions.
I can’t understand how anyone falls for this blatant anti-union propaganda
In amarica, there is no words to distinguish red (uncorrupted) and yellow (capitol sympathetic) unions. Their using the distrust their lackies created to ruin all unions.
Important point. We do have some words, I was stuck working for a ‘sweetheart union’ once.
Thats useful to know
Politics. Most conservatives are anti-union and pro-business in the US.
I work in a “right to work” state, which means you aren’t compelled to pay union dues, even if you directly benefit from one. This is specifically to undermine the power of unions which are overwhelmingly supportive of Democrats. Wooing union support is critical for them (see: Joe Biden in Michigan recently).
It literally is that simple.
It’s legal because we have free speech in this country. The company can post anything they like as long as it doesn’t meet the definition of Union busting, which (is) illegal. We don’t need to go to our Unions either, just more stupidity.
europe has just sneakier anti-labor laws. Neoliberals are de-regulating everything anyway.
Tf are you on?
Nordic states are having more far right victories resulting in ‘deregulation’. The same in Germany and France. Do I have to remind you the next ruling party of germany will most likely be an extreme right party?
The fact they are putting these up should let you know it’s something you want to join
Agree. I don’t understand why Amazon thinks this will help, like “hello people, Union is a thing that we’re really afraid of, haven’t you heard?”
Because they want to plant that seed of doubt and fear.
Might not work for you, but unfortunately there are a lot of naive or insecure folks out there.
People are so used to getting gaslit by megacorps, they just eat that shit up unquestioned
If you can think critically, sure. But large amounts of the population are dumb as bricks and will believe this literally just because it’s on a poster.
I do feel like this is smart. The first two points are whatever but the third one “typically you must go through union instead of your supervisor or manager” makes it sound like there is a lot of bureaucratic overhead to it. People who are undecided could feel that it’s too much effort.
“Oh no, I’ll have to go through someone who actually has my interests at heart and not my shitty manager! Damn unions!”
And no, you don’t have to go through the union instead of your supervisor/manager. In my union job, they’d send a witness/advocate along with someone if they had an issue where a manager was involved.
The union was corrupt, but despite that it was still the best factory job I’ve worked in (ok another one was also not bad but that was mostly because no one really gave a fuck about the stupid shit there and everyone just did their jobs without fucking with each other). The pay was high enough that when I was looking for something better, I realized a certification I had started wasn’t going to mean more money, just different work for similar money.
Yea. I had a shop steward sit in on all my meetings with management. They represent the union, it’s influence, and it’s contract. They make sure everyone is playing by the rules and management doesn’t take advantage of an employee that doesn’t know labor laws, policies and procedures, their work contract, or the union contract.
It wasn’t a requirement for meeting with management, but it was something a manager could not refuse if requested by the employee. Any meeting with management would be delayed until a shop steward was available.
I was a strong advocate for every employee to have one with all meetings with management.
Yeah, Amazon is trying to present it as extra red tape everyone will have to deal with, but it’s really the union will help you get through the company’s red tape. The union’s red tape is more about its own power structure, which will have the usual problems that go along with any kind of power, but the union still serves to balance the employer’s power.
Exactly. Also, if you ever hear saying “you won’t have a say, the union speaks FOR you” (yes I’ve seen this framing before) you can always respond that you ARE the union! That’s the entire point is that everyone in the union IS the union, it’s right there in the word.
It’s not a guarantee they have your interests and heart, but your odds are a lot better than your supervisor having your interests and heart.
Your supervisor has a duty to put the good of the company ahead of the good of the employee or they’re risking their own jobs.
Why don’t people understand this simple fact ?
interests and heart
Yeah, I hate it when my supervisor steals my vital organs.
It’s not a guarantee they have your interests and heart
No, but it’s at least in their job description to act accordingly.
That’s why I advise anyone who has anything important happening to them to first seek advise from an organization that deals with worker rights, a union or a lawyer, as HR are there to protect the company, not to help you.
If they help you, it’s only because that’s what’s beneficial to the company and their personal allegiances in the company.
The amount of effort your company goes into dissuading you from starting a Union, is proportional to how much you need one.
They have only one argument, and it’s pathetic and not even true. Dues without guarantee. lol
It doesn’t matter what their argument is, Amazon workers are probably smart enough to realize any anti-union advertising is because unions are good for workers and bad for Amazon.
I can’t believe imagine there’s a single Amazon worker who thinks Amazon has their best interest at heart or would spend money to save their employees money.
I guess those managers who fight the workers do believe that Amazon has their best interest at heart.
Believe it. I’m sure a factor in where Amazon locates its facilities is union presence and support, along with cost of living and education level. That is to say, lower income areas with an undereducated population and strong anti-labor politics. Obviously not possible in every region but a lot of the US is like a whole other world when you travel just outside the city.
At my FC, I would say 50% at best would even consider the question. MAGA/Trump support runs deep there. Nobody likes the company, yet they will happily take its side over their coworkers…
Obligatory, “if a company is trying to convince you you don’t need a union, you need a union”.
Unions are like condoms, in that regard.
Straight lies. How can you tell someone that unions cannot guarantee anything?
Sure a union technically can not guarantee anything. But I’ll guarantee you’ll be in a million times stronger position with a union.
They’re also spreading this nonsense at my hospital where we’re actively organizing right now. It preys on people’s ignorance of how legal contracts work.
Your lease doesn’t guarantee that your landlord won’t violate its terms either. But it does give you the ammunition to take them to court and win compensation, if they do.
The same applies to a union contact. It’s legally binding in the same way. Sure the company technically can violate the terms of that agreement. But the union is going to escalate the issue to the NLRB and/or sue them in court, if they do. And you will win, if you provide the evidence that they violated the legally binding contract.
This is what disingenuous corporations call “not guaranteed”
I think what they’re trying to say is that being in a union, by itself doesn’t guarantee higher wages or better benefits. Which is true, but incredibly misleading since you sure as hell aren’t getting those wage/benefit increases without union membership.
“You can’t guarantee that your new collective bargaining agreement will be honored by us.”
Unions literally cannot guarantee you money, dude. Other than what’s in their coffers, and what is “drawn up” in advance, collected for, and spelled out in a written agreement.
Especially fragile new unions, they don’t have jack shit going for them. The company isn’t going to help it form, and they might choose to fire dissenters attempting to unionize. During a strike or demonstrations, even with a formed union, the company isn’t going to pay the workers for not working. In this way, the company is correct in saying “there are no guarantees of pay”. Hell if they don’t like you there’s no guarantee of a job at all, if there’s no established union.
It’s all talk, speculation until a formed union draws up a legal, enforceable contract that both company & union agree to. CBA, as it’s called (Collective Bargaining Agreement).
It’s the company who has to sign off on the CBA, too.
A union can ASK for things, but it’s always the company guaranteeing it.
The creepy part is how you’re supposed to turn in anyone who discusses unions or unionizing.
They literally tell you “if you hear someone discussing something against the company’s best interests, say something!”
How’s it not illegal?
Because Amazon can afford lawyers, and people who work for Amazon can’t…
It’s only illegal if the person you hurt is rich enough to sue you…
Ding ding ding, it is absolutely illegal. If I’m not mistaken the existence of the posters at all is illegal, not just certain parts. But the labor boards won’t go after them since they are one of the biggest employers in the country for now. Believe me, that won’t last. In the next few years they will have the packing centers 100% automated and eliminate the majority of the 950,000 jobs they “provide”.
murica
Crazy that they are using the same tactics to hinder unionizing that they used a hundred years ago.
Reasons not to join union:
-
No guarantee that they will help at all mitigating our blatant exploitation of the workforce
-
Uh, it is un-american.
Correct! They’re un-american in this union of states…
-
If conditions were left up to corporations children would still be working, we’d be doing 12 hours a day 6 days a week and Charles Dickens a Christmas Carol would be an autobiography on the current bestsellers list.
Corporations are interested in making profits, paying shareholders, managers getting their bonuses, workers are don’t make the top 10.
Isn’t this illegal?
Corporations do it, so yes but functionally hell no.
It’s only illegal if you don’t have enough money to influence the labor board. :P
It’s only illegal for them to lie. This fits in the very narrow gray area of what they’re allowed to say because technically it’s not untrue. No contract in the world guarantees anything will or will not happen. A contract gives you the ammunition to sue the person you entered into the agreement with, if that person (or corporation) violates the agreed upon terms. So a union contract still gives you leverage and power over a corporation, but technically it doesn’t guarantee the terms of the contract will happen.
Edit to clarify: I’m not suggesting the anti-union propaganda has any validity. Just that they get away with this because technically it’s not lying.
Since non-union workers already don’t have any pay guarantee, the only difference would be you have someone who is literally paid to act in your interest that you get to talk to instead of your corporate overlords. And all your fellow workers will stop production to guarantee that Amazon doesn’t get any work done until they agree to raise wages.
So basically they’re saying, “why would you join a union because even if you manage to negotiate good terms, you can’t trust that we will keep our word”?
THIS IS THE ACTUAL TAKEAWAY
No, you missed it. If there was a strike or an agreement couldn’t be reached, in that way, you are not paid by the company & there are no guarantees the union has the money, means to pay you in full or at all. In this (rare) instance, they are technically correct & not lying.
Yeah, I thought it was wildly illegal for a company to try and directly influence union action?
Unless if the law folk, or the people, are willing to do something about enforcing the rules, it doesn’t matter. This is what they meant back in the colonial days when they said things like “freedom isn’t free”.
No, they are free to speak & have policies & put up little posters. At WalMart ~15 yrs ago we were made to watch an anti-union video & it basically amounted to assurances that we can trust MGMT with anything; they will be fair & do the right thing. Lol
Now I don’t know when it came about, think it’s relatively new, but if there’s a union trying to form & the company goes out of their way to “bust” it, the union is supposed to be automatically recognized. IIRC.
these kinds of posters are only illegal in the state of Minnesota, and even in MN that law was just passed this year
It’s not the posters alone, it’s that they’re located with a voting machine
Secret ballot elections are never held at the employer’s place of work, they are mailed to employees and then tallied at the NLRB office. That machine is something else entirely
Except in one of Amazon’s cases they absolutely did, complete with Amazon security guard. It’s like they don’t give 2 shits about the law
It’s not illegal; it’s free speech. In their own business. It is incorrect, it is false propaganda, but it’s free speech.
That said, Amazon especially has engaged in enough illegal or at very least highly highly questionable practices in attempts to avoided workers unionizing. Such as: they had an agreement with the city to speed up a stop light, so organizers working in the parking lot didn’t have free time to effectively talk to workers leaving.
You can get in serious trouble, fired, for talking about unionizing at work in their workplace. Their rules. But the parking lot is fair game. So…they tilted the board to favor them, even there.
